My "Christian" Experience

last SG · 2008-05-14T15:01:06+00:00

lol, naked = satanic.hope of god ppl.. really drama la. everything = satanic. my answer to them: God is Satan.

Chin Eng SG

Unimportant? The prospect of a one way ticket to land of eternal BBQ unimportant?

yes, but it's a personal conviction.

i serve the Lord as much as possible, I do not serve the Lord for the rewards of the afterlife.

God can do to me whatever he wants. It does not matter to me - that's why it is unimportant.

Mrlimkopi SG

Jesus didn't say he rejected the soil (us). He just described what happens if the gospel is received by different people with different heart. I think it's wrong to use the parable of the sower to explain that Jesus demands good works as part of the condition for salvation. Because it's not what Jesus is talking about in the first place.

Ha..happy that you says that this is the wrong parable to use as you are the one who bring this in....go re-read the past post.

Mrlimkopi SG

Oh, just another thing, about bearing fruits. I think before you think about bearing fruits, you should always go back to the heart of salvation, because that's where it all began. Some people are so determined to produce fruits, in fear of losing their salvation, they are doing it the wrong way. In the end, they become empty and dry and upset (just like chibet and myself in that church).

It is not a Catholic teaching that we need to fear losing our salvation..... If you did happen to have such problem, either you are in the wrong place or you did not understand the teaching.

Mrlimkopi SG

LOL. It took me the whole day to calm down and stop being pissed. It's interesting the way you answer questions with more questions, and end it off with a sweeping statement about how Jesus would think, but actually, you're pushing what you think as the truth. it's no wonder i would be more "confused" as you put it.

If salvation is based on faith and works, and not faith alone, why does the thief qualify for salvation?

And if the sinful woman, if she didn't come over to wash Jesus' feet with her tears
and annoint Him, would she still be condemned?

What was Jesus thinking, when he allowed the thief into paradise, if he said that works was part of the condition for salvation, and not the result of salvation.

That's why i believe that good works come from the result of salvation. and is not the precondition for salvation.

Now you accuse me with answering questions with more questions? I said salvatiuon is by faith and deeds...you ask for quotes (you asked for quotes on 17.05.08) and I gave to you.....You came back with more quotes (which you now says is wrong to use - the sower one), personal opinions, acussations, cursing, bring in dead friends, uncles and trying also to drag my family in etc...

Finally, you says I am trying to push what I think is the truth. I did not force Chin Eng, did I ? I understood where he is coming from.....I back up what I said but he did not agree because he had reasons to.

You? Confused (now you say is my fault), angry, acussations, unfounded allegations based on your personal views etc.... Brother, you have attacked the Catholics in a very personal way but I have never attack you or your denominations, I don't even care where you are from.

If you have not responded in the way you did, the discussions would have ended.

I gave you the quote on the last judgement. Chin Eng respond with his arguments on that.....you are asking about the thief and sinful woman? You see now why it becomes long and confusing for you ?

Did icemoon not tell you earlier?

malcom SG

you are totally confused, when did I say that the Matt 5 is NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Please find my quotation if that exists.

I said that Matt is a parable and parables are not to be taken literally, I am sure even you know that there is a difference between taken seriously and taking literally.

However, you have said on May 22, 4.17 pm

If this be true, why isn't the world filled with half blind Catholics.... and don't go around saying Catholics are saintly in their behaviour.

I did't mean you as you Chin Eng, if you see most of my post I use 'we'. These whole things for me is not about self righteousness and telling people that all of you are sinners. We are all sinners. What I am trying to say here is, look, here is the bible passages, let's examine it together and see what it is trying to say using our ability in reasoning. But if you think that I am wrong, and insist that it is a parable, it is ok.

I always try to explan what Catholic Church stance on this, but I never say that we the Catholic people are better than Protestant. But surprisingly, both Chin Eng and dumbdumb! seems to take it personally and trying to prove that Protestants are more righteous than us Catholics. Why not leave the decision on who is more rightous, to our Father in Heaven? And let us concentrate on discovering what the God say in the bible and try our best to do it.

gasband SG

now become christian vs roman catholics liao

Mrlimkopi SG

And lastly about your proud claims of the catholic roots. How does the catholics continue to survive, you say? LOL, through pro-creation! conveniently, you guys frown on condoms. Either that, or you can confuse young christians like myself,

I was a convert.....so are the more than 1000 that was baptised earlier this Easter and many Easters before. How did condom come into play? Know your facts first brother...

By the way, RCIA is about 10 months and to get baptised, you need to go through it.....if you do not agree with the teachings, you do not need to get baptised and no hard feelings.....

Catholic do not only disallow condoms, they also disallow pre-marital sex. Sex is only for married couples and between the husband and wife only..... Going Geylang (married or not) is unacceptable. Does this sounds like wrong morals to you?

Did bible says so or I say so? Go find out yourself since you already condem this...

I told you this because you accuse that Catholic do not evangelise and reach out. This is proof that what you said is not true. Now, you throw in a new twist to this. Wake up lah....

Mrlimkopi SG

And no, I'm not riding on Chin Eng this time. Even if I do, it's no shame really. I'm surprised a big strong believer like yourself would make it sound like it's shameful to be learning from a stronger believer than himself and support his statements in defence of his faith. (need to do penance for this? I mean, that jibe about me having to ride on Chin Eng is so obviously meant to stab at me.)

No, there is nothing wrong......and I am not using it to stab at you (you said so - AGAIN!) I said that because you keep coming back with other issues instead of staying focus on our discussions - the quote you ask which I gave you - The Last Judgement!

You try to make fun of penance? You can if you know what that is all about. If not, suggest you find out first so that it can become more funny.......to all of us.

gasband SG

Yo Bro DumbDumb, no point continuing liao lah... I can see you got a thing about Roman Catholics. I have MY thing against them too but in a forum, its a lose lose situation discussing all these really. You have your point, they have their points. Be confident in your salvation and when Christ comes again, we will know whose in and whose out. Victory now is no victory on judgement day.

Icemoon SG

...but back to the point, wherein did you find me saying that I am not proud of the Wesley brothers. If I am not proud of the Methodist church would I have stayed there for more than twenty years? All I saying is: me being a Christian is more than me being a Methodist because while a denomination is strong, it is not perfect. So when I am in the Methodist church I do not necessary conform to all the standards. Also in this case, YOU are trying to label me with something which I think has no relevance on whether I am Methodist or not. Beyond that, after labelling me, you compare me with my church and say that my "type" clashes with the "type" that is traditionally associated with the Methodists founders.

To me, that is absolutely stupid and unnecessary, it's like finding out that you are a libra or a leo or a scorpio.... so what?

Again, putting words into my mouth again. When did I say that studying is no use? I am saying what about those who do not have the benefit of such higher studies? Does it mean that because they are not privilege to learn those things, they cannot attain salvation, or that they will still be lost in the Lord?

One need not be proud of something, yet he is not ashamed of it. For example, many in BP or Pres church, they are ignorant of their own Reformed roots and traditions. Yet they may stay in that church for 20 years. If they are ignorant of their own roots, how to be proud of it?

About your type clashing with the type of your founders, fair enough. One doesn't have to conform to all standards to belong to a denomination, but it is interesting to find out why the founders thought the way they did.

Seriously, who in this forum doesn't have the benefit of higher studies today? The fact you have access to the net means something, isn't it? The context is not about attaining salvation, rather it is about clarifying doubts and learning more about your faith after conversion. The case with dumbdumb here.

Mrlimkopi SG

Anyway bottomline is. If what you say is true (and please, enough with the "it doesn't matter what we both think" statement. I already elaborated with bible verses above), and that good works is a precondition for salvation, the whole world can just go to hell right now. Because everyday you're going to do something wrong, everyday you're going to forget to pay penance for some minor sins which slipped your mind, everyday you're going to piss someone off, or be pissed at someone. You'll be too busy trying to pull your butt out of the fryer to be effective in being fruitful.

But if what I say is true, and supported by the Word and proven by my family's life, that good works is the result of salvation, then. Well, then nothing actually, except maybe Jesus can now effectively use you, since you're now more focused in the family business of leading the lost home, instead of saving yourself.

So maybe, just maybe, it's you who need to reconsider your position. Keep an open mind? I mean, yeah, I'm young, I'm immature, what do I know right? compared with the towering wisdom of the catholic chruch. Maybe Jesus do actually use the fools to shame the wise, the weak to shame the strong?

Good for you and your family.....what about the rest who also felt the same like you but belongs to other denominations?

Go and checck it out to confirm for yourself - as the majority of christians worldwide is still Catholics and most of them felt the same way too...

If going by what you says, who cares about works? Save means saved liao...once saved always saved.....no conditions attached. Otherwise, Jesus would have died for nothing.....(you need me to help give you bible quotes to support or youtube video?) Enjoy life brother, no need to sacrifice for God lah...waste time, pray for what ? Already go heaven - confirmed liao.

If you want to tell me, but it's not like that because....you are automatically attaching conditions to your belief making it INVALID! Saved means saved liao and that's God's promise and supported by the bible (perhaps not)...........

If so, why got The Last Judgement huh ? Should be no judgement liao mah...someone forget to delete this from the bible lah....

Mrlimkopi SG

The rest answer you later....not to "siam" but got to do something else........

Icemoon SG

hmm, can explain why u disagree? and if you agree with the 2nd, then it would make sense.

because catholics believe that works is part of salvation. but who knows the reason why they do good works? can good work done with the wrong intention be any good?

my stand is that salvation is by faith and faith alone. and that faith, will produce good works (because the heart will always be in the right place) in it's own course.

good works, driven by love. and not because it's an obligation for salvation (since i don't worry about it) but EVERYTHING was shot down and condecended on because i didn't type in bible verses for it. (ah~~ catholic!)

Christians who love God may not go to church for various reasons. I mean, your statement very strong leh. You say they WILL go to church if they love God.

I'm referring more to Protestant churches. You can skip one or two months of church, no problem. But Catholic church works differently. When you attend Catholic church, your mentality must change. You go there not primarily to worship God and partake the once in a while "bread and wine". You go there to get nourished by the Mass. You go there to receive the blood and body of Christ. Note it is blood and body, no longer bread and wine.

You are spot on, dumbdumb, regarding good works. I quote you the WCF:

1. Good works are only such as God hath commanded in his holy Word, and not such as, without the warrant thereof, are devised by men, out of blind zeal, or upon any pretense of good intention.

2. These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith: and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.

However, you may have misunderstood the Catholic folks. I believe they are referring to 2.

Icemoon SG

i was taught that salvation can be denied. say a christian meets an asshole online, and stumbled by his condecending ways, decides to become an athiest. he denied salvation and lost his faith in the exisntance of God and the goodness of salvation. Then he'd be as good as the unsaved. that explains why they have altar calls for backsliders along with non believers.

but the point wasn't about perseverance. the point was at the point of believing. do you need good works as part of salvation.

I prefer the Reformed way of looking at such issue.

To use the analogy, if God purchases your salvation with the blood of Christ, can you fall away? What God wants, God will get because He is God. The blood of Christ is shed for the precious few, not all mankind. The shepherd bleeds for his sheep, not all animals.

The "trick" here is always look from God's perspective. If we analyze the issue from our perspective, it gets confusing because our life has ups and downs. So one moment you are saved, the next moment you turned atheist?

At the point of believing, what do you believe in? Why is there an issue about good works then?

dumbdumb! SG

Christians who love God may not go to church for various reasons. I mean, your statement very strong leh. You say they WILL go to church if they love God.

You are spot on, dumbdumb, regarding good works. I quote you the WCF:

However, you may have misunderstood the Catholic folks. I believe they are referring to 2.

then do they love God? That's my point, if you are a christian, and you don't have a problem with just attending service once on christmas and easter, and skipping the rest, i think it's a good time to ask yourself how real is salvation to you, and do you love God, because he certainly did alot of you.

but on the other hand. you can goto church, just for the sake of being there. Love need not exist in your heart to be in church, just like love was not in my heart when i was a buddhist going to a temple.

That's why again, a christian who loves God, will goto church (without being told etc), and if he can't, his heart is longing to goto church. But a christian who goes to church, may not love God.

I really don't think I need to elaborate until so detailed right?

dumbdumb! SG

The rest answer you later....not to "siam" but got to do something else........

no problem. oh just something.

it's not that i misunderstood about the condom thing, but wikipedia says that roman catholics only endorse natural family planning. and it's a mortal sin to use contraceptives. And apparently, if it isn't important enough for the great number of catholics to rewrite it, how can I be expected to act differently about it?

and with regards to penance. Sorry, no bible quotes on it, so yeah, again, it's your stuff, not mine. Point is, if you're going to jibe at others, and then say that it's God's view that matters, not ours. Then it's interesting to know that it's not how you think about the jibe that matters, or whether mine matters, but God isn't it. And since you have penance for such stuff, and a very harsh punishment if something goes unconfessed (something the catholic endorses, so i wouldn't know about it, or need to for that matter)

If you have not responded in the way you did, the discussions would have ended.

actually, if you read carefully. if you didn't say this:

Well, that's a good way to escape when you cannot support what you are saying.

nothing would have happened.

Icemoon SG

Hi Icemoon, Not that im trying to debate with you, but when you said

whats that supposed to mean?

I agree with you. But for the sake of discussion, can we leave out megachurches? In their case, size really doesn't mean anything. To say that maybe GOD allowed them to thrive, as Gamaliel in Acts reasoned, is not wrong. But then, i look at certain Christian cults out there and i wonder ...

My impression is those Protestants who parade bible verses do more harm than good usually. You see, your "discussion partner" can always use it against you. And you sink deeper into the morass. Well grounded Christians complement their sound theology with scriptural support. So they talk theology, not half baked ideas. I'm not criticising those without theological background and calling their personal conviction half baked ideas. Rather it is the mentality. When you pad your half baked ideas with bible verse, you are making a statement - the bible agrees with me! Not saying those half baked ideas are lies or heresy, however.

I find it weird why some Christians see theology as not very helpful in their Christian life and as a result not inclined to make an effort to study it. It is amusing because in our society, we usually study for our livelihood. Why people study MBA or CFA? For fun? Now you have something that is surely of interest to you as a Christian, yet you brush it aside.

Ok, we shall leave megachurch out. :P

Icemoon SG

Eh, is it so obvious what my doctrinal framework is? What gave me away? Don't recall talking about this with you. But really, i was from a methodist church, now in a pentecostal church and feel that the calvinist position makes more sense. Makes me what? Confused?

Hmm, it is not often a Protestant quotes patristics you know. whahaha.

Creation1656 SG

Originally posted by malcom:

Why not leave the decision on who is more rightous, to our Father in Heaven? And let us concentrate on discovering what the God say in the bible and try our best to do it.

Perhaps, christians can also learn from the sages. To quote from the Mishnah. Qiddushin. 4.14.

K. Abba Gurion of Sidon says in the name of Abba Gurya, " A man should not teach his son to be an ass driver, a camel driver, a baber, a sailor, a heardsman, or a shopkeeper. For their trade is a trade of thives."

L. R. Judah says in his name, "Most ass drivers are evil, most camel drivers are decent, most sailors are saintly, the best among physicians is going to Gehenna, and the best of butchers is a partner of Amalek."

M. R. Nehorai says, " I should lay aside every trade in the world and teach my son only Torah.

N. "For a man eats its fruits in this world, and the principal remains for the world to come.

O. "But other trade are not that way.

P. "When a man gets sick or old or has pains and cannot do his job, lo, he dies of starvation.

Q. "But with Torah it is not that way.

R. "But it keeps him from all evil when he is young, and it gives him a future and a hope when he is old.

S. "Concerning his youth, what does it say? They who wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength. And concerning his old age what does it say? They shall still bring forth fruit in old age.

T. "And so it says with regards to the patriarch Abraham, may he rest in peace, And Abraham was old and well along in years, and the LORD blessed Abraham in all things.

U. "We find that the patriarch Abraham kept the entire Torah even before it was revealed, since it says, Since Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandment, my statues, and my laws." The Mishnah a new translation by Jacob Neusner, Yale University Press. pp498-499.

Yes, everybody should concentrate on discovering what GOD say in the bible (Torah) and try their best to to it. If this is achieved there will be Shalom. Perhaps, dumbdumb! would also like to re examine his present church doctrines.

malcom SG

For me, therein lies the problem that in trying to advance her ecumenical agenda, the Roman Catholic Church has opened its arms so wide to embrace everyone that it might end up strangling itself.

SO, not here to add fire to ur discussion (debate?), but if u could point me somewhere.

The only agenda that the Catholic Church has is that it try to save all people, nothing else. Yes, the Church opens its arms so wide to embrace everyone, but it doesn't compromise on the faith, doctrines.

What happened is Catholic Church has tried very hard to embrace Protestans, with Vatican II, but there is no result so far, instead its loosing its traditional members like SSPX and other traditionals. If I am not wrong, in Vatican II, Protestant leaders are invited as an observer, and the current Pope in the council, was dressed informally, which I believe he is trying to make Catholic look less threatening.

And now it is trying to embrace back the traditionals.

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